|
Post by rikita on May 15, 2023 17:16:56 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm of the opinion that if a person is communicating with people who aren't of their dialect, it's counterproductive (and rude) to refuse to use the 'standard'. I think the UK has the added problem that dialect says a lot about class and education. hm, but would you only say so when the person is refusing to speak the standard of their country? or, if an australian and an american speak to each other, for example, should they adapt to each other's standard language? and whose?
i suppose it is difficult when someone speaks in a way that is difficult to understand, even though they'd be able to speak in a more understandable way (i suppose there might be people who really can't, though) - but as long as i can understand the other person, i don't see a problem (and if people adapt too much, i suppose that might also contribute to loss of dialects) ...
|
|
|
Post by ozziegiraffe on May 15, 2023 18:34:05 GMT -5
Not usually used here in the south east. Singular is singular and plural is plural - I think that's more a thing up north? Anyway, stop with your "language is fluid" stuff - I'm GERMAN - language is an exact science, what is right or wrong can't just be moved around and changed without a big committee of people debating for 20 years! joking aside - we were literally thought there is a right and wrong way of saying things - and I guess that's the only way you can start to learn a language - and I am still rather "snobbish" and inflexible about it. I grew up in a particularly snobbish part of Sydney, and learnt English grammar from primary school, Latin and French in high school.. I still cringe when I hear school principals in regional areas say “ youse”. I try not to react physically!
|
|
|
Post by Liiisa on May 15, 2023 18:50:00 GMT -5
I think most people code-switch at least a little depending on the audience.
I don't speak a nonstandard dialect, but I do tend to pepper my speech extensively with the f-word. I try my best to avoid doing so around older or higher-status people. I also code-switch down a level of complexity when speaking with people who don't have great English or who don't share a specialized vocabulary (like I might say "cast skin" instead of "exuvia" when talking about dragonflies with people who aren't insect nerds).
Edited to add: but you had better not spell anything wrong, unless it's in the service of an internet joke. I am extremely pedantic about spelling. A lovely neighbor who is originally from Serbia kindly bought signs that say "Please Drive Slow," and though I would never say anything to her, it drives me nuts. slow-LY. please drive slowLY.
|
|
|
Post by psw on May 15, 2023 20:54:39 GMT -5
Liiisa: "I also code-switch down a level of complexity when speaking with people who don't have great English or who don't share a specialized vocabulary" Yes, absolutely. I tend to think of colloquial language as my usual idiom from which I code-switch to ESL/EFL when appropriate. This also excludes sports metaphors and all manner of local jokes in general conversation and includes a slower pace and crisper diction. There's a sliding scale, of course.
|
|
|
Post by Queen on May 16, 2023 1:51:01 GMT -5
The singular plural thing for BrE can also depend on what you're emphasising.
The team won = singular, it's important that the individuals played together as one team The team have trained really hard = plural, it's important that each individual is recognised as having trained hard.
____
A lot of my conversations are with people who have English as a second language and the rest are with people who grew up with a different flavour of English to me.
It's all code switching to me!
|
|
|
Post by romily on May 16, 2023 3:15:51 GMT -5
But three boxes are surely plural in any sense of the imagination - I mean it's three, not one box?
I guess for us non native speakers it's hard when we got drilled in school so much to get the grammar right, and then stumble upon people who are native speakers who say whatever they want to say. I understand it, accept that it is ok in some dialects ( but my example was a mistake by the writer as you would not say that around here) but it's still difficult to align it with what you learned in school - and I guess if you teach a language you can't take into account all local variations, you need to teach a right or wrong way of saying things.
I guess it's the same with Spanish - you learn the standard Spanish but I already know there are lots if regional variations, especially Spanish spoken in Spain vs latin american, and different latin american countries. But if you start learning it you have to start with a standard version if that makes sense. It doesn't help coming from a country where language is very regulated, and there is a clear right and wrong - of course there are dialects, but the "high german" - Hochdeutsch - which is taught and is the standard is very black and white. And people who use dialect (like my stepdad) know the difference of speaking high German vs the local dialect, and can switch between the two (He's funny, when he speaks with his football buddies he speaks completely different than normally, and nobody from outside of his region could understand him - I sometimes struggle!)
|
|
|
Post by Queen on May 16, 2023 4:10:52 GMT -5
Three boxes is plural. If I were teaching English I would use standard correct grammar, and explain regional variations if the student was confused.
|
|
|
Post by Liiisa on May 16, 2023 4:49:16 GMT -5
lol Q, but that's only correct if you put it in quotes. "Three boxes" is plural.
|
|
|
Post by romily on May 16, 2023 5:31:52 GMT -5
But three boxes are on the shelf. I will not waver on this one! LOL
|
|
|
Post by vinnyd on May 16, 2023 9:56:07 GMT -5
For the sake of completeness, I should probably have noted that "There be three boxes on the shelf" is also possible in some dialects, not just in North America.
|
|
|
Post by Webs on May 16, 2023 12:08:47 GMT -5
Thar be tree booxes oon dat shelvf, der, by gobs.
Fixed fer everyboday
|
|
|
Post by sprite on May 16, 2023 16:10:58 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm of the opinion that if a person is communicating with people who aren't of their dialect, it's counterproductive (and rude) to refuse to use the 'standard'. hm, but would you only say so when the person is refusing to speak the standard of their country? or, if an australian and an american speak to each other, for example, should they adapt to each other's standard language? and whose? [/div][/quote] I think mostly, English speakers can understand each other's standards, outside of a small number of sounds. I still struggle a little with the way many English people create an R where there isn't one, saying 'medi-er' instead of 'medi-ah', for example. but I can usually work it out. The exception would be English speakers from the Indian sub-continent, because their intonation is quite different. (maybe not intonation, but sort of that + different word stress?) I really need to learn more about this way of speaking, because a lot of my students will have classmates and profs from there. Unfortunately, most English textbooks are cheefully biased against anyone who isn't speaking well-educated white people English.
|
|
|
Post by Liiisa on May 16, 2023 16:25:20 GMT -5
But in Black American English, "three boxes be on the shelf" implies that three boxes are habitually on the shelf. It's like "she be running" is different from "she is running."
(I think. This is based on an interesting article I read, not any deep familiarity.)
|
|
|
Post by vinnyd on May 17, 2023 9:33:04 GMT -5
I have read that too, but I am not sure that most speakers of AAVE that I hear have that distinction in their dialect. And "There be" is not just AAVE. Don't pirates (i.e. parts of southwest England) say "There be"?
|
|
|
Post by lillielangtry on May 17, 2023 9:52:17 GMT -5
Yes, I think so!
|
|
|
Post by Webs on May 17, 2023 11:35:23 GMT -5
Yinglih - Vas is dis boxes on da shelvf? Dri? Vei is dis dri boxes on da shelvf? Dey break da shelvf, dees too heafy, take off da shelvf.
|
|
|
Post by Liiisa on May 17, 2023 16:06:39 GMT -5
HEEVY BAAXY IN DE CHELV
|
|
|
Post by snowwhite on May 17, 2023 16:39:01 GMT -5
I can sort of see how someone could end up saying / thinking:
I wonder how much paper there is? Hmmm, let's see, there is... oh, three boxes on the shelf.
So if the question is: what quantity of paper is there?
The answer is: there is three boxes on the shelf.
Which is not to say that's lovely grammar, but cognitively it makes sense, sort of.
|
|
|
Post by Liiisa on May 17, 2023 20:57:37 GMT -5
I think you can say "there is -- let's see -- three boxes on the shelf, plus another 30 in the warehouse." But remove that "let's see" and it sounds terribly wrong!
|
|
|
Post by psw on May 17, 2023 21:45:05 GMT -5
Vas fun ferkakte mishigas?
|
|
|
Post by snowwhite on May 18, 2023 6:45:24 GMT -5
I think you can say "there is -- let's see -- three boxes on the shelf, plus another 30 in the warehouse." But remove that "let's see" and it sounds terribly wrong! Yes, exactly.
|
|
|
Post by Webs on May 19, 2023 15:37:07 GMT -5
How many reams of paper are in the boxes? (note - there's 500 sheets of paper in a ream).
|
|
|
Post by Liiisa on May 19, 2023 15:42:26 GMT -5
How many reams of paper are in the boxes? (note - there's 500 sheets of paper in a ream). There are in a US ream — but I bet other countries have weird reams, like 480 sheets of A4 or whatever. I bet. ETA “REAM,” not team you stupid autocorrect. I tried to fix that 3 times before it finally relented.
|
|
|
Post by ozziegiraffe on May 19, 2023 19:30:36 GMT -5
As the daughter of a commercial letterpress printer I should know this. 500 sheets a standard quantity of paper, consisting of 20 quires or 500 sheets (formerly 480 sheets), or 516 sheets (printer's ream, or perfect ream ).
|
|
|
Post by rikita on Jun 9, 2023 10:52:39 GMT -5
so, another question about english - a had an english test this week, and there are a few things about it that i want to bring up with her teacher (like, she didn't get points for answering the additional questions, even though they are correct, and i wonder if the teacher didn't see it, or if she didn't count them because a. didn't finish the main tasks) ... but my question to you is not something i want to bring up, just wondering: on top of the printed pages for the test, it says "classtest" (like, Klassenarbeit in German) - in the dictionary i can find that "class test" exists, but written as two words. So, is writing "classtest" okay? And - is "class test" or "classtest" used in English speaking countries to describe a bigger written test at school? (because it sounds kind of odd to me, but of course, other than my exchange programme, i didn't go to any english speaking schools) ...
|
|
|
Post by psw on Jun 9, 2023 11:07:46 GMT -5
Two words, if at all. It's not a native usage, at least in USA.
|
|
|
Post by sophie on Jun 9, 2023 11:12:00 GMT -5
2 words
|
|
|
Post by lillielangtry on Jun 9, 2023 14:25:43 GMT -5
So at a more general level, English tends to adopt new terms as separate words, then as hyphenated, then as one word. That's why if you read older books you might see "week-end" but now it's always "weekend". And why people now don't always hyphenate email because it's such a common word.
I don't think that process is even underway with class test, let alone complete. In English, you would really just say test, the class is redundant, but if you are going to use it... two words.
|
|
|
Post by Queen on Jun 9, 2023 17:01:01 GMT -5
Class test, two words. Agree with others, we'd normally just call it a test.
Met up with my colleague and his wife for drinks tonight, wife speaks English and German. She's been doing some shopping and wanted to know what "Angry Onions" are.
After some discussion figured out she meant spring onions which in Dutch are "bosui" (ui = onion)
FALSE FRIENDS ARE EVERYWHERE
|
|
|
Post by Liiisa on Jun 9, 2023 17:40:42 GMT -5
Agree, saying "class test" is redundant. HOWEVER, we do use the single word "classwork," and isn't that what "Klassenarbeit" would translate to anyway?
And also agree, we start with two words, then a hyphen appears, then it becomes a single word like it would be in German.
That's one thing I love about reading the 19th century New York Times - seeing archaic spellings, or things that you forget come from a different language like "resume" written out in italics (or quotes!) with the diacriticals preserved.
|
|