Accents

[HalcyonDaze]

Why is it some people never lose their accent when they speak English as a second language, and others can sound native straight away?

Is it something to do with the first language, or is it more personality?


(Prompted by listening to Gabriel Gaté doing Taste Le Tour)

[vinnyd]

I've never known anyone to sound native straight away in any foreign language.

A possible exception for, e.g. two-year-olds, who can pretty quickly sound like native two-year-olds.

[elora]

Not sure - could be who taught them English, could be their age when they learn English, who they speak English with or it could just be how hard they try to sound like everyone else (to fit in?)

[poppy]

or do they continue with their first language at home?

[lillielangtry]

I don't think any adult sounds native straightaway. Of those that do later, I think it is just a gift, like being able to sing or imitate regional accents in your mother tongue. You can hugely improve your accent by practising and exposure to the language, of course, but actually "passing" as a native is very rare.

[mei]

I think it may have to do with age you learn it at (and then keeping it up) and learning in a native environment. but i don't really know, it may just depend on the person.

I know people sometimes get confused by how I speak English, it's not Dutch-accented, but it's also not native enough to be passed off as any of the English accents. I do find that it changes a little depending on who I spend a lot of time with. If I'm around a lot of Americans, I'll slowly pick up a more American way of speech I think.

[ozziegiraffe]

My accountant is Dutch-born and in his sixties. He moved to Australia as a teenager, and married an Australian. He lives in a town with very few Dutch-born people. He still has an accent.

[lillielangtry]

Jul 27, 2013 4:53:47 GMT -5 mei said:

I know people sometimes get confused by how I speak English, it's not Dutch-accented, but it's also not native enough to be passed off as any of the English accents.

That's quite typical, I think. I know a Swedish person whose English is accentless, but it's almost that which makes you "suspicious" (for want of a better word!) that she's not a native speaker. Her English is so neutral - not regionally accented, not foreign, not "posh" - that that in itself is unusual.

[sophie]

English is my third language ( I started english when i was 6) and while don't have an accent normally, I get the syntax confused especially when changing languages.

[elora]

Jul 27, 2013 5:43:58 GMT -5 lillielangtry said:

Jul 27, 2013 4:53:47 GMT -5 mei said:

I know a Swedish person whose English is accentless, but it's almost that which makes you "suspicious" (for want of a better word!) that she's not a native speaker. Her English is so neutral - not regionally accented, not foreign, not "posh" - that that in itself is unusual.

Okay, this makes me wonder ... (for the English language) - is there an accent (or lack of one) that is considered neutral or a base from which everyone else is derived? Those letters and sounds that give us our accents - is there one that is "right" and the rest of us just mangle it? Just curious ...

This reminds me of the time we were visiting friends in Australia and the wife confided that she wasn't sure that her deaf husband (who read lips) would be able to understand our accents. It took me a second to realise how much sense that made. Of course, it didn't really help with the English to English translation issues but we coped

[mei]

elora, it always makes me smile when a native-English-speaker claims he/she doesn't speak with an accent. uhm, yes, you do. it may just be the type of english you are used to, but it's still profoundly different/accented from other types of English

but I suppose in every type of language there is some kind of standard? Usually it's the way news readers speak (or at least, that's the standard used in the NL (abn), Japan and UK as well, no?)

[elora]

mei - I think, at one point, you are right - the news presenters were the standard or at least neutral enough to have broad appeal. I was going to say that since they have become more ethnically more diverse (ie. not a white male) that it is less so but when i thought about it, they are still fairly "neutral" accents.

Interesting though - (did we threadjack this?)

[viv]

We had a German student come to stay with us once - she was about 22, spoke 7 languages and her English was amazing. She had a Glasgwegian accent (Glasgow, Scotland that is) which we found hilarious. Her English teacher was from there, so she'd learned the pronounciations in that accent.

[lillielangtry]

Yes, mei and elora, the sort of "newsreader standard" was what I was referring to (although even the BBC uses people with regional accents these days!). Of course your idea of what is neutral varies according to your own standpoint and I was writing from mine. Americans, for example, would identify my Swedish friend as British and having a British accent.

[ozziegiraffe]

One of my students in Solomon Islands spoke English with an American accent. This was before the days of television in the country, but he came from a relatively affluent urban family, and grew up watching lots of videos.

[snowwhite]

Some people have a better ear than others. That said:

The general rule is that if you are immersed in a 'new' language before the age of about 12, you will almost certainly acquire native-like competancy (native is defined as learning a language from a parent or older sibling - very interesting in the case of sign language, but anyway...), from 12-16 or so, you may or may not sound native-like, start after about 16 and you'll probably always sound a bit 'foreign'.

If you want to google, this is known as the 'critical period' for language acquisition.

[sprite]

it's something to do with pre-puberty plasticity of the brain. so even if a person isn't particularly competent with the language, they can develop the accent perfectly which may fool people into thinking they are better than they are. i have this argument a lot, 'accent' does not equal 'fluency.'

i think being musical may help. i have a very good french accent when i want, but have studying since i was 6. i can swear in slovak like a native--my accent is almost perfekt. but i can't put proper sentences together and have an extremely limited vocabulary.

[snowwhite]

I should emphasise I was talking about immersion type situations - moving to a country with a new language and being educated in it, for example. Not just learning it in school, say.

There are certainly some adults with VERY good 'learnt' accents, but as sprite says, that's not the same as overall competence.

And if you're learning a new flavour of your own language other things come into play, like whether you think something is a permanent move, or if you WANT to integrate etc.

[sprite]

i've adapted my accent since being in the uk, and have been mistaken for irish. as i mistook a famous ex-WT irishman for an american, i can sort of see why.

[Queen]

Jul 27, 2013 9:22:25 GMT -5 mei said:

elora, it always makes me smile when a native-English-speaker claims he/she doesn't speak with an accent. uhm, yes, you do. it may just be the type of english you are used to, but it's still profoundly different/accented from other types of English

but I suppose in every type of language there is some kind of standard? Usually it's the way news readers speak (or at least, that's the standard used in the NL (abn), Japan and UK as well, no?)

For English which newsreaders?

The ones in US - who are sometimes Canadian
The ones in the UK - where "received pronunciation" was a standard which has now been abandoned
The ones in OZ - please no!

In NL I was told that the Harlem accent was the "correct" accent. I had to keep a serious face but at the time I could barely hear the difference between Dutch accents. Now when I speak Dutch people can hear I'm an English speaker 90% of the time. I have managed to confuse a couple of people from the south though

As for Mei's English - it's at native level. British rather than American but no regional accent, which might be what confuses people.

Agree with Snowwhite; years ago I had a Czech bf, he'd moved to NZ at about 8 years old. Sounded kiwi. His brother had been 11, sounded kiwi at first but there were occasional "notes" which were off. Not an accent exactly, just odd. The parents retained a strong accent all their lives.

[HalcyonDaze]

Q, the story of the Czech bf reminds me of friends from highschool.
The three kids had all grown up here, but the father had retained his incredibly strong Northern Irish accent, and his kids had all initially spoken like that. The two daughters lost that at primary school - in the words of one 'it was beaten out of us'. Instead they had a very precise accent.
By the time the younger boy started at primary school, there were different teachers and he retained the irish accent from his father.

[Queen]

After living in Oz for decades SiL's father retains a strong Scottish accent... and doesn't understand our bemused looks in his direction when he complains about migrants

[riverhorse]

I read somewhere that the ability to pick up accents in foreign languages may have a lot to do with how "musical" an ear you have - if you can hold a note well, the theory goes, then you can pick up accents too. This may explain why opera singers rarely have strong accents when singing in languages that they otherwise have absolutely no clue about.

When I used to live in Germany, everyone thought I was German, and could pick which region of Germany I lived in. I think my accent has neutralised a bit more since then. And as for my English - I just can't win. The Poms immediately pick that I'm Australian (although they mostly say that my accent isn't very strong) whereas I always spend the first week back home in Australia trying to convince people that I'm not English.

[ozziegiraffe]

The first time I went to Europe, I travelled around for a week or so with two Americans. They seriously upset a New Zealander they met on a train by asking if he was Australian, because he sounded like me. Both of us had fairly neutral accents, rather than broad ones from our respective countries.

[riverhorse]

OzG, I find that most non-Antipodeans can't really tell the different between Kiwi and Aussie accents, I'm constantly being mistaken for a Kiwi or a Sarth Effrikan (!!) by the Poms.

I then explain to them that Kiwis are the ones that mix up all their vowels: they write with a pin, cook with a pen and sew with a pun.

[Bastet]

Jul 27, 2013 0:33:07 GMT -5 lillielangtry said:

I don't think any adult sounds native straightaway. Of those that do later, I think it is just a gift, like being able to sing or imitate regional accents in your mother tongue. You can hugely improve your accent by practising and exposure to the language, of course, but actually "passing" as a native is very rare.

I agree with that.

Most adults don't lose the entirely - there are just grades of adaptation. People who lost it moved when they were younger, have a talent or took lessons.

Like I don't think anyone can sound like a Swede 100% - even those that are close to prefect get the sk, sj, skj, stj, k, kj, tj etc sounds not entirely right.

After so many years in England I never lost my accent nor have I here - people used to put me in the generic "Dutch" category.. All I've accumulated is a total mishmash of accents/slang and people are even more confused about where I'm from, I get Irish, American, South African most commonly. I don't mind having an accent but I hate it when people don't understand me.

[romily]

I have never met a non native german speaker (as in, grew up in german) where I didn't recognise a foreign accent, no matter how small it is. I really don't think it's possible - you might get close, but not 100%.

Every british person spots my foreign accent - I don't always get Germany but often. funnily enough people from the US don't, many thought my accent was a british one (guess it's because of the words I use, and they are not familiar with local british accents). German people or others who don't speak english well generally think I am British (I got compliments from a German traveler once for having so good a grasp of the german language, which amused me highly).

When I speak german, even if I try to speak high german (which I generally don't), there is always a franconinan accent there that any other native german speaker can spot.

I think to get rid of an accent requires real training with a language teacher - I don't agree that it has anything to do with being musical as I have a good singing voice but can't imitate any accent, incl german ones, for the life of me.

[shilgia]

Dec 10, 2013 9:48:14 GMT -5 romily said:

I have never met a non native german speaker (as in, grew up in german) where I didn't recognise a foreign accent, no matter how small it is. I really don't think it's possible - you might get close, but not 100%.

Almost the same here for Dutch. I've known only one person who got there -- my German teacher in high school. She was German, married to a Dutch man, and had been living in the Netherlands for a long time. She had pretty much accentless Dutch (which is very unusual for German speakers). I think on rare occasions there would be a word that gave her away, but a stranger could have had an hour-long conversation with her and not notice.

Other than that, I've never met anyone who became accentless. And I don't know for sure that my German teacher hadn't been exposed to Dutch as a child.

[romily]

I actually think it's nice to have a slight accent - I worked on getting fluid, but never on getting rid of the last of my accent. It's part of my background and identity as far as I am concerned.

[cakemonkey]

Jul 29, 2013 22:50:59 GMT -5 sprite said:

i've adapted my accent since being in the uk, and have been mistaken for irish. as i mistook a famous ex-WT irishman for an american, i can sort of see why.

I think you sound like an Irish person living in the States. You sound more Irish than North American to me.