|
Post by romily on Dec 29, 2023 4:30:11 GMT -5
I always think in German words are pronounced exactly the way they are spelled - would be interesting to get a non native German speakers perspective on that...
|
|
|
Post by vinnyd on Dec 29, 2023 7:49:31 GMT -5
Irish is like French. If you know the rules, you can look at a written word and know exactly how it is pronounced, but as often as not hearing a word will not tell you how to write it.
|
|
|
Post by vinnyd on Dec 29, 2023 7:55:49 GMT -5
Romily, I think that that is pretty much right, once you know the rules, e.g. that final voiced consonants are unvoiced, e.g. Kind is pronounced as if it ended with a t, and that an initial s when followed by p or t is like an English sh.
|
|
|
Post by Liiisa on Dec 29, 2023 8:35:27 GMT -5
Maybe we should be saying "most languages have rules, which you just have to learn" - like in Irish, as vinny said, once you know "mh" equals what we'd think of as "v," you can pronounce it.
English doesn't have very many rules because it's a conglomerate of other languages, so I guess the words that come from French should follow French rules, except they don't anymore after being mangled in interesting ways by diverse populations of English speakers over the centuries.
(The fact that Irish uses "mh" for that sound makes no sense to me, but I guess I have to take that up with the medieval monks who made that decision, or maybe it's one of those pronunciation shifts where it actually sounded like what I'd think of as "mh" at one time but it doesn't anymore, like English words like "enough" etc.)
|
|
|
Post by vinnyd on Dec 29, 2023 9:00:58 GMT -5
I think it's the latter, liiisa. The spelling was fixed but pronunciation kept changing.
In English, the k and the gh were both pronounced in knight when that spelling became established. (And the i was short.)
|
|
|
Post by riverhorse on Dec 29, 2023 15:29:50 GMT -5
I always think in German words are pronounced exactly the way they are spelled - would be interesting to get a non native German speakers perspective on that... You're pretty much right there except for some foreign words that have been incorporated into the language and some occasional weirdness such as Knie (singular) is pronounced K-nee but the plural is spelled exactly the same yet pronounced K-nee -yuh.
|
|
|
Post by lillielangtry on Dec 29, 2023 15:59:00 GMT -5
Yep, German has many challenges, but spelling is not one of the major ones.
I - and most of my class - had initial difficulties with "ie" and "ei" but honestly that probably had more to do with the irregularity of English words with those combinations, because once you've really learned the German rule you're fine.
|
|
|
Post by Phar Lap on Dec 29, 2023 16:36:16 GMT -5
When I was a child, our family dentist was Mr Featherstonehaugh. Pronounced Fanshaw. And of course Cholmondeley is Chumley. Just as Worcestershire is Woostasheer. And the law firm was St John, Marjoribanks, Menzies and Beauchamp? Actually no, it was Ditcher, Quick and Hyde. Divorce lawyers.
|
|
|
Post by vinnyd on Dec 29, 2023 17:00:36 GMT -5
Mr Mainwaring is feeling left out.
|
|
|
Post by wombatrois on Dec 29, 2023 19:15:58 GMT -5
Except here it can be said just as it's spelt.
We have a suburb here called Cockburn, much to incomers' mirth. Except it's pronounced coburn.
|
|
|
Post by ozziegiraffe on Dec 29, 2023 19:33:31 GMT -5
We had a Prime Minister called Robert Menzies, pronounced Men-zees. How else is it pronounced?
|
|
|
Post by Liiisa on Dec 29, 2023 19:42:22 GMT -5
There was a musician here in the 80s Bruce Cockburn who was pronounced "co-burn," so I suppose that's fairly common. (I suppose he could still be around, but haven't heard from him in quite a while)
|
|
|
Post by jimm on Dec 29, 2023 23:08:27 GMT -5
Ozzie I think it's sometime pron Min-jees or Ming-jees. Ex PM Menzies was known as Ming the Merciless, after a Buck Rogers character.
|
|
|
Post by scrubb on Dec 30, 2023 1:16:14 GMT -5
There was a musician here in the 80s Bruce Cockburn who was pronounced "co-burn," so I suppose that's fairly common. (I suppose he could still be around, but haven't heard from him in quite a while) Bizarrely, I heard one of his concerts played on the radio yesterday! He's Csnadian so he pops up from time to time in these parts.
|
|
|
Post by lillielangtry on Dec 30, 2023 2:57:10 GMT -5
We had a Prime Minister called Robert Menzies, pronounced Men-zees. How else is it pronounced? The Scottish name is pronounced "Ming-iss". There was a British politician called Ming Campbell, real name Menzies.
|
|
|
Post by ozziegiraffe on Dec 30, 2023 3:07:44 GMT -5
Interesting. I’ve never heard that pronunciation. I knew it was a Scottish name, but my half-Scottish dad never said it that way.
|
|
|
Post by Phar Lap on Dec 30, 2023 6:28:02 GMT -5
Maybe we should be saying "most languages have rules, which you just have to learn" - like in Irish, as vinny said, once you know "mh" equals what we'd think of as "v," you can pronounce it. (The fact that Irish uses "mh" for that sound makes no sense to me, but I guess I have to take that up with the medieval monks who made that decision, or maybe it's one of those pronunciation shifts where it actually sounded like what I'd think of as "mh" at one time but it doesn't anymore, like English words like "enough" etc.) If the “mh” is at the start of a word, it is pronounced as “w”. Ever tried to say hello in Irish? It’s Dia Dhuit and I can promise you it sounds nothing like it looks!
|
|
|
Post by HalcyonDaze on Dec 30, 2023 6:54:29 GMT -5
Ozzie I think it's sometime pron Min-jees or Ming-jees. Ex PM Menzies was known as Ming the Merciless, after a Buck Rogers character. Ha, I've finally learnt why he had the nickname Ming, thank you. I'd always put it down to some racist link to communism people were trying to make.
|
|
|
Post by Liiisa on Dec 30, 2023 6:54:59 GMT -5
Yup, I learned that for going to Ireland 10 years ago, but never got the occasion to use it because everyone I talked to were speaking English. Such an interesting orthography.
|
|
|
Post by fishface on Dec 31, 2023 3:04:04 GMT -5
Except here it can be said just as it's spelt. We have a suburb here called Cockburn, much to incomers' mirth. Except it's pronounced coburn. That's definitely giving me "actually, it's boo kay" vibes! We have Majoribanks Street here which i always pronounced correctly (as in, one of the generally accepted pronunciations) until I had to get taxis there regularly. The auto accept thing never accepted Marsh banks or Marsha banks Street. I had to pronounce it Marjorie Banks to be accepted. Annoyed the crap out of me. Unlike Jervois Quay which should be pronounced 'jarviss' but as any local will tell you, it is 'jer voice'.
|
|
|
Post by Phar Lap on Dec 31, 2023 3:55:48 GMT -5
The first time I visited Sydney I asked where Circular Quay was and received blank stares. Until some bright spark said, “Oh, you mean the quay?” And it was my turn to look blank. Later I found it was not pronounced as Quay, it was pronounced as Key. Ahh….. funny people those Sydney-siders!
|
|
|
Post by Phar Lap on Dec 31, 2023 4:04:17 GMT -5
At my hostel in Kalgoorlie, I mentioned I was going to New Zealand in a few months, one of the miners, young fellow named Anthony, warned me that words beginning Wh were pronounced as ‘F’ and ran through some of the places. He took great delight when he got to Whakatane and Whakarewarewa!
|
|
|
Post by vinnyd on Dec 31, 2023 6:47:40 GMT -5
Thames Street in Baltimore used to be pronounced as it's spelled, not like the river for which I assume it's named, but now the pronunciation is unsettled.
|
|
|
Post by ozziegiraffe on Dec 31, 2023 8:05:38 GMT -5
Quay is always pronounced key.
|
|
|
Post by wombatrois on Dec 31, 2023 8:17:41 GMT -5
Oooh, ooh, I have one - buoy. Go.
|
|
|
Post by ozziegiraffe on Dec 31, 2023 8:21:26 GMT -5
Boy. The u is silent.
|
|
|
Post by Liiisa on Dec 31, 2023 8:21:38 GMT -5
Buoy is pronounced "boo-ee" here.
|
|
|
Post by Phar Lap on Dec 31, 2023 8:27:49 GMT -5
Buoy is pronounced "boo-ee" here. Cooee is pronounced as cooee, no u. Cooee is used to attract attention, especially in the bush. The coo is very long like cooo-wee!
|
|
|
Post by wombatrois on Dec 31, 2023 8:31:38 GMT -5
I know Liiisa, I just wanted to snigger at your pronunciation! (sorry).
I was listening to (I think) Michelle Obama's book and I was so distracted by the pronunciation of one word, which she used all the time, it was somewhat annoying.
Strangely enough it was the word produce (as in food) which she pronounced as pro (as in grow) duce (as in goose).
Which is the direct opposite of how you (USAnians) pronounce project, whereas we would pronounce the pro in produce the same way you pronounce project! So confusing!
And then there is the word produce (verb - I produce films) and that is pronounced pruduce with a short "u" sound. How would that be pronounced? Differently?
|
|
|
Post by vinnyd on Dec 31, 2023 8:52:10 GMT -5
I used to be the last USAnian who pronounced buoy boy. I have not had occasion to pronounce it in quite a while, but I think that now I would have to go with the flow.
Verb produce is stressed on the second syllable. Noun produce is stressed on the first syllable. In my pronunciation the o is short and the u is long in both cases, and the second syllable is more like dooce than like the British juice.
|
|